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 Post subject: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:30 pm 
Vagabond

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:26 am
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Hello everyone, I started maining a prophet on l2 classic 2.5 (club server), and since this will probably be my last character before finally quitting l2, I wanted to make something different and out of the ordinary kinda. So I'd like to know some of your ideas when it comes to armor/dyes/weapon/rune for a prophet (end-game mass pvp wise - I don't care about 1v1). Please bare in mind that I wouldn't want to be a healer, if I did I'd go for bishop. Nor would I want to be a nuker DD. My "theorycrafting" so far consists of a prophet in doom heavy with shield and +12 wit and prolly PoWater. I wanna go for as defensive build as possible, while also mainting some casting speed for spontaneous buffs/debuffs and heals. Most would prolly tell me to go for BW LA since it offers the best balance between defence and casting speed, but that's a convenient choice for a bishop - not my anarchist prophet :P Although I did test +12 con on BW LA, it seems legit and if I remember correctly, it offers same cast speed as Doom hv on +12 wit and higher hp/cp, although a little bit less defence and of course no shield def. Besides that, I've also thought of BW HV for the purpose of +7 speed, running around debuffing everyone and getting caught by none (although debuffs don't land as frequently on later patches anymore), but this comes with the cost of -HP and -shield def.
Anyway, yea many possibilities, many others including CoV/PoF experimentation. If you read this far, I salute you and happily expect your views :D
(PS: As the type of armor will be my long-term goal for end-game mass pvp, any of the above choices will be +6)


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:33 am 
Duke
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Since the version is 2.5, I'm afraid the 'debuffer' path won't be as viable as you'd like, because of the purification song, which really makes all debuffers lives miserable. It's not like the roots will be useless, you'll still surely get some work done, but I think you'll still find yourself healing quite a bit too :)

As for the armor... It's really hard to not recommend BW light for your playstyle, especially on Classic where it also gives stun resist... It's basically all-around active prophet's dream :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:23 pm 
Vagabond

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Herlitz wrote:
Since the version is 2.5, I'm afraid the 'debuffer' path won't be as viable as you'd like, because of the purification song, which really makes all debuffers lives miserable. It's not like the roots will be useless, you'll still surely get some work done, but I think you'll still find yourself healing quite a bit too :)

As for the armor... It's really hard to not recommend BW light for your playstyle, especially on Classic where it also gives stun resist... It's basically all-around active prophet's dream :mrgreen:


I know, the points for BW L may be stronger than the ones made for Doom HV. But I am still looking into it. I've run some tests and came up with the following results:

1) BW L +6 (PoF/+12 wit, buffed, s/d) No rune
> CP 1704
> HP 7508
> MP 3209
>P.def 1360
>Cast. Speed 1134

2) Doom HV +6 (CoV/same) No rune
>CP 1861
> HP 7940
> MP 3042
> P.def 1352
> C.S. 987
So this is the closest they can get to each other, it's like exchanging stats for stats. From my point of view, I think casting speed of 987 is enough for a debuffer/secondary healer (even buffer after rez). 1134 just feels to much without a reason for a prophet in mass pvp. So with this set-up, I give up
150 MP (no problem, I got BW robe for start),
150 c.speed (which if it's SOOO necessary I can get via super rune)
And stun resist passive
For
160 CP
430 HP
Doom shield def passive
Hold/sleep res (maybe neglectable)
(in addition, doom heavy has a slightly higher M.crit.)

And, last but not least, rune option is free, so if any stats lacks in Doom HV, we can fix it with any rune type. After finishing being tanky against fighters, I can get tankier in general with HP% rune.
But maybe stun resist is more important than all the others.
Please let me hear you thoughts. Also if you'd like me to inform you about further stat tests in different buffs/dyes combinations, let me know.


(Edit: Well puri will run out at one point, and then I will shine. I'm also expecting the mana burn debuff in the next update,, which idk if is considered mental in order to be resisted by puri)


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:31 am 
Duke
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Gloomy wrote:
Herlitz wrote:
Since the version is 2.5, I'm afraid the 'debuffer' path won't be as viable as you'd like, because of the purification song, which really makes all debuffers lives miserable. It's not like the roots will be useless, you'll still surely get some work done, but I think you'll still find yourself healing quite a bit too :)

As for the armor... It's really hard to not recommend BW light for your playstyle, especially on Classic where it also gives stun resist... It's basically all-around active prophet's dream :mrgreen:


I know, the points for BW L may be stronger than the ones made for Doom HV. But I am still looking into it. I've run some tests and came up with the following results:

1) BW L +6 (PoF/+12 wit, buffed, s/d) No rune
> CP 1704
> HP 7508
> MP 3209
>P.def 1360
>Cast. Speed 1134

2) Doom HV +6 (CoV/same) No rune
>CP 1861
> HP 7940
> MP 3042
> P.def 1352
> C.S. 987


I mean... The first thing that comes to my mind when I see these numbers is "well, there you have it" :mrgreen:

Initially I thought there'd be a massive difference in p.def (in favor of Doom) which maybe could justify the casting speed deficit but... Just look at the percentages:

Total HP/CP difference in favor of Doom Heavy: 6.39%
Total casting speed difference in favor of BW light: 14.89% (!)

I think you're underestimating the importance of casting speed there - you're not supposed to be a tank, I mean you won't even be targeted most of the time, but literally everything you're supposed to do in mass PvP involves casting speed - sure, debuffs are 'fast enough' to a certain point, but buffing (after your teammates were canceled by 1 of gajilion cancel skills there are on Classic) isn't and healing most certainly isn't. 987 might sound enough at first but once you really get hold of it and you get into a heat of battle you're really going to keep wanting more and more casting speed :mrgreen:

As for the other bonuses - stun resist > hold/sleep resist always, doom shield passive... It's nice but if you just pick Nightmare shield instead (it's pretty cheapo) you get around 11% base shield p.def increase which is further amplified by Advanced Block (more base stat = higher increase), the m.crit rate is rather negligible in this case.

BUT, if you go for doom heavy with +12 WIT and the 10% casting speed rune I don't think it's going to be significantly worse on paper (I'm not saying it would be better because I really don't believe it would), it could have one other advantage (or disadvantage, depending on point of view) that wasn't mentioned yet a - a psychological effect. When you're wearing Heavy armor you're much less likely to be targeted than if you were to wear BW light. Not just because obviously heavy user is usually harder to kill than a light user, when you're wearing BW light there's also a chance you can be mistaken for bishop and hence attract some targets. Whether you'd be willing to occasionally take a hit for your team's bishop is up to you, I guess :mrgreen:

btw. you mentioned you "ran some tests" - where are you testing these numbers?

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:04 pm 
Vagabond

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:26 am
Posts: 10
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your views. I appreciate it a lot, the fact that someone takes time to talk about an active pp!
Herlitz wrote:
It's nice but if you just pick Nightmare shield instead (it's pretty cheapo) you get around 11% base shield p.def increase which is further amplified by Advanced Block (more base stat = higher increase), the m.crit rate is rather negligible in this case.

Does this mean that NM shield offer higher shield def rate than doom shield on its own? Because what I'm looking for with the doom's passive is to increase the "rate" - the chances I have for blocking damage, not just getting higher pdef shield. Both PP and EE shield rate buffs add an 80% to shield defense, but is this the "rate/chance of blocking", or how does it work?

Btw I'm running the tests on club's test server, on a 78 hierophant. Fyi if I add super casting rune lv11 on doom hv (all same as the above test), I reach 1066 casting speed. The psychological effect is true indeed, and I may not find a reason to be tanky (doom) if no one is gonna target me. It's much more useful to take away some time from the enemies hitting me instead of my DDs/BP, so I may as well go for BW L on super P.Def or HP% rune. In addition I do not know whether it'd be worth it to give up a wit dye for con (in the case of BW L, where casting speed is higher), it seems like every point of wit equals to 2 points of M.cr.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:52 pm 
Duke
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Tbh I'm not quite sure how the shield defense rate is calculated, but both NM and Doom shield should give you an exact defense chance. My point is that the base shield p. def should also be considered - e.g., if someone hits you 10 times for 10 damage, and you block 5 times for 2 damage reduction each, it's the same overall damage reduction as if you blocked 2 times for 5 times reduction. In other words sure, the overall shield block rate would be higher with doom heavy, but the final advantage over BW would be somewhat mitigated if you used NM shield that has higher base p.def...

As for the days, personally I'd just go straight for +12 WIT... The buffing/healing speed combined with higher chance to heal crit and even that little extra push of the cliff for the debuff casting, all of it is just too valuable to exchange for a few points of HP imo (on Classic the CON stat is purely about the HP, it doesn't increase stun resist there)...

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:22 pm 
Marquis
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Location: Cape Town,South Africa
Gloomy wrote:
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your views. I appreciate it a lot, the fact that someone takes time to talk about an active pp!
Herlitz wrote:
It's nice but if you just pick Nightmare shield instead (it's pretty cheapo) you get around 11% base shield p.def increase which is further amplified by Advanced Block (more base stat = higher increase), the m.crit rate is rather negligible in this case.

Does this mean that NM shield offer higher shield def rate than doom shield on its own? Because what I'm looking for with the doom's passive is to increase the "rate" - the chances I have for blocking damage, not just getting higher pdef shield. Both PP and EE shield rate buffs add an 80% to shield defense, but is this the "rate/chance of blocking", or how does it work?

Btw I'm running the tests on club's test server, on a 78 hierophant. Fyi if I add super casting rune lv11 on doom hv (all same as the above test), I reach 1066 casting speed. The psychological effect is true indeed, and I may not find a reason to be tanky (doom) if no one is gonna target me. It's much more useful to take away some time from the enemies hitting me instead of my DDs/BP, so I may as well go for BW L on super P.Def or HP% rune. In addition I do not know whether it'd be worth it to give up a wit dye for con (in the case of BW L, where casting speed is higher), it seems like every point of wit equals to 2 points of M.cr.


He means that Doom will block more often but less dmg( nm will block less often but more dmg) so its overall the same. Imo go for BWlight + NM shield setup and 12 WIT like Herlitz suggested.

Base shield def is 20% for any char and its multiplied by 3 if attacker is using bow.
However, it scales with DEX ( poorly) also not sure if it does on classic.

Bless shield gives u 80% Shield def rate ,so basically 20% x1.8 = 36%. Im not sure how its calculated vs Bows but its around 90% def rate with bless shield vs archer.

Advanced block gives u shield power(pdef). When shield def success u get lower dmg because shield adds more Pdef because of adv block. (The same way NM will block more dmg because higher Pdef then doom)

Anyway, keep in mind Shield block works only if u are facing the attacker. If you are running from your enemy it does nothing. Some tanks have passive/active for full shield block from all sides but its only Tanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:29 pm 
Vagabond

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:26 am
Posts: 10
I got the point of bw+nm, a mechanic I didn't think of. Well here it is then, seems I'll have to just go with the flow and be on BW L. One last thing, what's your suggestion for rune? Do you agree with either super pdef or hp%? I've been also fancying the idea of healing power / aeore.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:18 pm 
Marquis
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Location: Cape Town,South Africa
Gloomy wrote:
I got the point of bw+nm, a mechanic I didn't think of. Well here it is then, seems I'll have to just go with the flow and be on BW L. One last thing, what's your suggestion for rune? Do you agree with either super pdef or hp%? I've been also fancying the idea of healing power / aeore.


Idk much about classic but i remember russians used Mcrit (super feoh?) rune on bishops for end game or pvp servers . Im not sure but i think Hp /pdef runes are kinda trashy, no?
I would go for either heal power or mcrit but thats me and im not really into classic.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:20 pm 
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defo bw l
best advice --> dont play classic if u r planning to leave the game for good
classic is trash so why leave with bitter flavor ?:D

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:33 am 
Vagabond

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:26 am
Posts: 10
GoDs3nD wrote:
defo bw l
best advice --> dont play classic if u r planning to leave the game for good
classic is trash so why leave with bitter flavor ?:D

The only private server (Club) that's so solid and has survived so much as if it were an official one. Also a very proper administration team unlike any private or official server + highest populated international server. I like classic, I like waiting for something new (patches) and not a restart. I could play on a c6, so what, what's there to expect? I hate the idea of people wet dreaming about the old l2 days and getting into such servers. Every chronicle has a limited amount of stuff to do, that's why during the old days new chronicles were constantly introduced, same happens with class now, and it's even better since club only filters in the good ones and let stupid NCsoft **** out of it. At this point there is no other server worth investing ur time into, except club. You may argue that classic is not old school l2, thank god it's not, the reason most people adore c6 and earlier chronicles is the nostalgia, and the fact that they were edgy teens like to slash things with their dagger or spam with their human archer, basic af.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:50 pm 
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Quote:
Hello everyone, I started maining a prophet on l2 classic 2.5 (club server), and since this will probably be my last character before finally quitting l2


Quote:
I like waiting for something new (patches) and not a restart.


the above 2 sentences contradict with each other too much to follow the conversation further

njoy your gaming :)

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:19 pm 
Vagabond

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:26 am
Posts: 10
GoDs3nD wrote:
Quote:
Hello everyone, I started maining a prophet on l2 classic 2.5 (club server), and since this will probably be my last character before finally quitting l2


Quote:
I like waiting for something new (patches) and not a restart.


the above 2 sentences contradict with each other too much to follow the conversation further

njoy your gaming :)

Dunno how they do, since 3.0 and further patches are on the way + I didn't mean I'm about to play for 3 summer months and quit, I got a couple of years until my uni student years are over, so still, more than enough time, more than the lifespan of any private c6-gracia-h5 server for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Even tho your arguments are on point and i agree about the Club server but u dont need to hate on other chronicles( actual l2) Ppl play C6 mostly because its the closest thing to original L2. Sadly ost advertised C6 projects are ran by Vercetti with purely business intentions and no player/game support whatsoever and they close when donation flow gets low ...
Archers are basic af because its been 15 years ppl playing this game and everything is well known already. Anyway its only valid on x5 server with x1 cost on consumables. Gameplay is way different on x1 rates especially w archers.
Every game version has flaws but classic offers nothing better then old l2, its actually worse imo.
When they bring u 3.0 update unless they nerf the content is not even doable. You need insane items that ncsoft introduced as "donate exclusive items"(stronger then epics btw) and most of them are not even tradeable. Without insanely overgeared char+ those items u wont even survive 2 hits from IT/GC/LOA/varka/ketra mobs and so on. So in the end u are left with Atribute zones that have no adena or drop whatsoever so u have to farm raids if u want A gear. Tnx god they buffed the RBs atleast. Thats legit the only thing i like in classic - no more raiding with 3 ppl :D. Then again u have NCsoft braindead decisions by making every RB drop same items if they are equal in level. LOL
I wont even comment on quests. They are pretty much non existant and there are legit 2 quests in the game that gives more then 2k adena :D . I wont even get to comment the Sieges - pointless.

Perhaps its NCwest greedness that made me "hate" classic , perhaps is the poorly developed game version but in general Classic has nothing to do with C2/C3 or whatever ppl expected. It feels like poorly downgraded h5 to me.

There is a reason why majority prefer to start new C6 server every 2-3 months then playing classic.
It has nothing to do with original L2 ppl are used to. No sieges. No pvp for epics because u cant even PVE the epics. No low lvl catas. No quests. Farming zones insanely limited,farming/unsealing A grade is bs.

The few things i like are the reworked clan/clan war system (except the clan skills), Reworked frenzy, reworked vamp, reworked reflect, reworked fishing and the set bonuses they added ( which are still poorly made). Everything else is str8 up worse then before.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. You dont have to agree with me.


Last edited by bemyfrag on Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional prophet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:36 pm 
Vagabond

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bemyfrag wrote:
Even tho your arguments are on point and i agree about the Club server but u dont need to hate on other chronicles( actual l2) Ppl play C6 mostly because its the closest thing to original L2.
Archers are basic af because its been 15 years ppl playing this game and everything is well known already. Anyway its only valid on x5 server with x1 cost on consumables. Gameplay is way different on x1 rates especially w archers.
Every game version has flaws but classic offers nothing better then old l2, its actually worse imo.
When they bring u 3.0 update unless they nerf the content is not even doable. You need insane items that ncsoft introduced as "donate exclusive items"(stronger then epics btw) and most of them are not even tradeable. Without insanely overgeared char+ those items u wont even survive 2 hits from IT/GC/LOA/varka/ketra mobs and so on. So in the end u are left with Atribute zones that have no adena or drop whatsoever so u have to farm raids if u want A gear. Tnx god they buffed the RBs atleast. Thats legit the only thing i like in classic - no more raiding with 3 ppl :D. Then again u have NCsoft braindead decisions by making every RB drop same items if they are equal in level. LOL
I wont even comment on quests. They are pretty much non existant and there are legit 2 quests in the game that gives more then 2k adena :D

Perhaps its NCwest greedness that made me "hate" classic , perhaps is the poorly developed game version but in general Classic has nothing to do with C2/C3 or whatever ppl expected. It feels like poorly downgraded h5 to me.

I dunno how club admins are gonna work on later classic patches, cuz indeed NCWest classic is a disgrace (they even may follow NCKorea if their versions are preferable, cuz NCWest doesnt follow Korea anymore). So far club seems to be going very well with the stuff they decide to implement each time, they're smart and dedicated to l2 classic and not l2 scammsh***.

The reason we didn't see an "all over" restart from c1 is because during those days, even game developers had no clue what they were doing compared to now (not talking about current l2 developers, those suck, I'm talking about mmorpg development improving as a whole during the years). The only reason we "think" l2 was at its best during early chronicles is based on feelings and teenage memories (And the fact we had no experience with other huge mmorpg worlds), because seeing through today's eyes, the game sucked, had flaws all over the place (mind you I'm not defending l2 GoD and later patches at all, that was the worst thing to ever happen). I too would like to re-live that era, but I can't kid myself into being a rat on a wheel, running after a hanging cheese. It's something that most haven't yet realized and overcome. I worship this game for the memories it offered, but I wouldn't "re-worship". For me classic is a refreshed version of l2, and offers more interesting pvp fight due to skills and set-ups, that 10 auto-attack archer c6 parties wouldn't possibly imagine. Besides, no matter what, it's the only version with live updates and balances, constantly moving with new items, areas and epic bosses, I like that, I'm curious as to where it will lead, I don't wanna get stuck in an interlude, knowing very well that at some point, it's just gonna stop - you ain't getting gracia or w/e patch after - which again will be known to the tiniest detail after so many years of people playing such servers, that's not the case with classic where you can always test new things and create an alternate meta.


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