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Would you fund USD/EUR/GBP 5 for
Bad idea - no trust in project 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Bad idea - no trust in GoDs3nD 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Bad idea - no money 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Half good idea - only discord gaming hub is enough 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Great idea - no trust, will donate after servers are running 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Great idea - no money 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Great idea - would throw in 3-5 EUR/monthly 78%  78%  [ 7 ]
Great idea - interested in games other than L2 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Great idea - would give less than 3-5 EUR 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not interested at all 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 9
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 Post subject: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:55 am 
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PMFun Gaming Hub
Power to the people
Its the renegade master

WHAT?!
You all fall into 5 default groups(base classes):
1) Dont play actively L2 because there is nothing good to play
2) Dont play actively but you spend a few bucks and/or days/weeks on some "L2 Server brand" relaunch
3) You play actively but you QQ for RMT/P2W/corruption
4) You play actively but you dont QQ for the above because you are part of it
5) You play and dont give a shit cuz thats the name of the game and thats what ppl are

So whats the poll about? To see if the L2 community is dead for good and we just hang around for nostalgia OR
maybe the community is interested to do some community stuff :)

WHY?
1) Because PMfun is the best l2 forum and old farts still hang around - would be a nice fucking tribute and great community.
2) Because I have a ton of OFF and Java builds and some very nice human beings in my network who also happen to have experience with different aspects of hosting l2 servers. So I would definitely humbly reach out to them for tips and guidance and just maybe they might decide to join forces on the project. Would be as epic as VOLTRON UNITE!
3) Because a chill gaming hub that combines l2 servers of different flavors, discord community that regularly hosts streams, events and discussions for ANY GAME the community members are interested in AND all that funded by the people and for the people sound like a great idea
4) Ive been saying this for long time and it is indeed true - l2 is dead, so if anyone can revive it is not a random mtfk who downloaded 18 years old l2j files and launched a servidor from his moms basement. Its the fans who love the game up to this day and would if they could and there would be :lol:

HOW?
Well simple, humble beginnings are the basis of a great adventure.

1) I could host an interlude test server for starters so the community can test the files and see if they are worth the ride.
Its going to be on one of my laptops so wont be very performant if we have a great number of players interested but meh... thats the best thing to complain about "QQ too many ppl are interested in no-nonsense and no-cashgrab server QQQQQ"
Who knows someone might just throw in better releases than I have if they believe the idea is good.
Such open beta test will also show the actual liveliness and how invested would people be to the concept.
Set up sort of a constitution of the server - some concepts and rules that will never be broken or even line-stepped to assure fair gameplay for everybody and no P2W

2) My personal dream server is x5 no dualbox with players able to setup buff shops and offline stores - ez enough for people who dont play regularly, fair enough for support char players and healthy for the economy. I really believe this kind of a chill gaming setup will be a good core to the community to expand onward to different servers rates and concepts
Dont tell me you dont miss old nostalgic L2Katsu/Zeus/Dexternet days

3) Once the files and concept for the start are settled in stone the time will come for gamers to back up their desires and pretentions with $$$. Fundraiser will go simultaneously with organizational and marketing efforts. Besides initial fundraising the network MUST and WILL provide cosmetics for donations and if I can find on russki forums leaked freebie costumes that can be implemented smh into L2OFF files will make sure to expand it further. We all know this model is great and does not interefere with actual gameplay at all.
!!!Between 2 and 3 phase there will be 2.5(pretty much like gracia) where i will have to make calculations and research on cloud server running costs and ddos protection and general security because I am sure the russki scam servers will try to beat off such strong competition. I wanna be fully prepared for all and any kind of malicious behavior.

4) Expand to weekly streaming events for other games (i would personally love to headshot some of yous in cs-go 5v5 and stream it) and look for ally developers/teams/servers who can join and enrich the platform's substance

It is hard to believe you are still reading
But if you do, my rough estimations say if there is 500 players that would pay 3 eur monthly (a joke amount of money) I can organize a nice server for a grand a month and manage the administration.
From sources i trust fully i know Gracia Final / H5 require big boyo server with min 32gb ram just to launch an instance without players playing it so a C4/IL server would be alot cheaper to kickstart.

Whats in it for me?
I get to do something no one previously has done and have fun in the adventure.
Not interested in making cash out of it, if people donate some coins for my and the teams good efforts, well we might book flights to some bar in Zlata Praga and drink some beers to celebrate the success. Other then that there are A LOT more efficient ways to make money than L2 server hosting and dealing with the manchild community nowadays.

So as my G ForceGaming says "We gamers are very strong with demands and critiques but when we have to show up and support with our wallets we are pretty shallow". or something llike that...
Vote the poll, if it gets some traction something cool might pop up.

If the poll gets 200 positive votes I could whip out a test server in short time.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:45 pm 
Vagabond

Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 12:07 am
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That's a nice idea but the problem as usual is the community who just jumps from server to server and worst do rtm no matter what and external programs as bot etc. I see you're passionate and i really wish you all the luck i mean it.

Maybe this will turn out to be real good and gets populated who knows, otherwise it's ok you tried that's what matters and you're honest about it that's why i like the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:47 pm 
Duke
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I'm afraid the poll won't get to 200 votes anytime soon, but I really appreciate the enthusiasm. Would be great to see again a serv made by someone who is serious about it and not for money, as is sadly common in the community, so more power to you :)

btw. I also came up a slogan for the server - "Make L2 Great Again!". You can have it, no trademark, accept it as my first contribution to the project :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:48 am 
Vagabond
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bar wrote:
That's a nice idea but the problem as usual is the community who just jumps from server to server and worst do rtm no matter what and external programs as bot etc. I see you're passionate and i really wish you all the luck i mean it.

Maybe this will turn out to be real good and gets populated who knows, otherwise it's ok you tried that's what matters and you're honest about it that's why i like the idea.


That's valhalla-age for you alright, money grabbing machine just like most of these big russian networks. They literally pay players (big clans) to play on their servers. The moment they stop paying, big clans stop playing, server dies (last one survived like 2 months after its huge launch), they launch a new server, pay players again and so on. That's why there were always the same players playing on their network in the last 5 years. :D

To get on topic, 3 euros is nothing, but getting to build a long lasting community of hundreds of people willing to pay 2 play sort of ain't gonna be that easy, and there's many cyber terrorists out there to take care of, who constantly threaten server owners of ddos if no pay (this happened to both reborn & elmorelab), but I'm sure you are already aware of all these.

Anyway, the idea sounds very cool and looks good on paper, I can definitely see myself paying 3-5 euros on monthly basis to be part of this.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:57 pm 
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thanks for the positive replies peeps, but only 2 votes outta 3 comments, not very promising

yeah guys i agree there is higher chance for this not to ever happen as opposed for it to come to life
spread the word, share around your friends (qq if u have any) see if anyone would be interested and thats it

herlitz:
u gona have that slogan in your title cuz you would definitely be a community manager

the slogan for the project is Power To The People
because if they want power they gotta put the commitment too, it never comes for free and that is why
this is one of the core reasons servers die, no commitment to anything from the players side and p2w that burns the end game 2 fast
so its easy for them to throw it off

if Steven Sharif can leave ncosft L2 team and crowd fund Ashes of Creation so 5 clans and 200 randoms can kickstart a server by chipping in a little IF the player base indeed needs this kind of network


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pm 
Heir
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The biggest problem we all face is time. Although I wouldn't mind paying 3-5 euros, I don't have the time to invest in L2 anymore, so I just lurk around for old times sake.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:13 pm 
Duke
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GoDs3nD wrote:
herlitz:
u gona have that slogan in your title cuz you would definitely be a community manager


Aww you're too nice. But yeah what beaver said, time might be bigger issue than money. Personally I wouldn't mind paying 10 eur or more, but C6 5x may be a tough sell for me. Considered making some midrate instead? Imo the best thing that the private servers came up with in recent years is the "progressive" chronicles, meaning they start with say C4, go to C6, Hellbound etc... Problem with mid or high rates is that nolifers often get to endgame after which there is not much to do, but if you already plan in advance there will be multiple progressions in the future, well you suddenly have much more to work with...

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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:33 am 
Vagabond

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Quote:
2) My personal dream server is x5 no dualbox with players able to setup buff shops and offline stores - ez enough for people who dont play regularly, fair enough for support char players and healthy for the economy. I really believe this kind of a chill gaming setup will be a good core to the community to expand onward to different servers rates and concepts
Dont tell me you dont miss old nostalgic L2Katsu/Zeus/Dexternet days

hei man, excellent haha, u got me creating a new account for what u wrote, please count me in, i have free time so i can do all that is needed within my knoledge and powers. Thank u very much


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:31 pm 
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Herlitz wrote:
GoDs3nD wrote:
herlitz:
u gona have that slogan in your title cuz you would definitely be a community manager


Aww you're too nice. But yeah what beaver said, time might be bigger issue than money. Personally I wouldn't mind paying 10 eur or more, but C6 5x may be a tough sell for me. Considered making some midrate instead? Imo the best thing that the private servers came up with in recent years is the "progressive" chronicles, meaning they start with say C4, go to C6, Hellbound etc... Problem with mid or high rates is that nolifers often get to endgame after which there is not much to do, but if you already plan in advance there will be multiple progressions in the future, well you suddenly have much more to work with...


@time point - its not a matter of time but how much mmos draw you in. this is common problem with people who play mmos just because they are pretty vast they think they dont have time to keep up, its the contrary they offer the chance to get lost there. i understand how you feel, dont support it but i accept it.

furthermore if u accept the CM position you cant play on the LR server :/

and that is why we get to point 2:
@rates and setup - i contemplated it as a network so it could catter to different tastes
opening x3-x5 x10-x30 and x100+ server on the same chronicle is pointless
much more fun would be if there would be :
1) a classic nostalgic experience with a simple and straightforward chronicle like Interlude (btw on x5 u can do 1-61 in 3 days without 2 much sweat)
2) a mid rate server based on epilogue-gracia-h5(these can be java but to run the offi packs for gf/h5 proper hardware and bandwidth is required we might need to indeed up the sub to 10 eur :D ) - these chronos extend the farm and craft alot so mid rate is best imho
3) and a highly customized/instant pvp server like Copylefts AQUA or GVE(man im such a big fan offaction servidors but thats 2 much scripting for 1-man project)

point 3:
progression of chronicles - i personally like this idea because the metas change a bit and that makes for a healthy reroll enviroment where you are not stuck on 1 char and it is worth to have a few different toons
the problem with this one is that you are always exposed when migrating to a new chronicle to finding the files are buggy AF and the community feels scammed. when reborn upgraded to HB at first i was excited because i like HB as a chronicle, but then i decided to give it a week to see if its worth it. people said it was barely playable and riddled with bugs.
similar thing i think happened with elmore when they changed to c4 - alot of bugs and exploits were reported
everything can be fixed in terms of code - it just requires hours of professional labor and then hours of meticulous testing. people underestimate the complexity of this alot. on top of this add any changes to the database schema that could fuck up the account migrations, all the backups and prep you need is no small thing
you were almost correct "a lot more to work on" is the correct wording

i am strong believer in the Minimum Viable Product concept - it needs to be cheap, good, simple, fun
as soon as you hit the right formula the flow of consumers comes, then capital, then extension or expansion! you should never do the vice-versa and go grandious without positive consumer feedback and financial ability to implement

i am not discarding your idea that a mid rate gracia final server could be more successful but it cant be both at start, im not a gambling person so i wouldnt gamble, i would just let players who will subscribe to this service let me know what chrono they would play - from the people and for the people

final point 4:
nolifers: there are always people who live to game and game to live and those are your core players who usually form a toxic kernel that overwhelms all competition in combat, regardless if LR or HR server these guys exist and the gap is felt alot more on LR server rather than on a PVP one(if the PVP server ofc is not a scam like most are and requires more farm than a x3 srver)

again i unerstand your point, i dont support it but i see from where it comes. it sounds to much like "look bezos and musk have 2 much money, cant compete with them, i rather not spend any money at all"
i personally never gave 2 shits about who nolifes the game, i usually played in the opposition alliance who was weaker but still put fight against the dominating farmers
this is the name of the game, and this is how it should be - play more - gain more, its just fair

if you play 2 hours a day it does not matter to you who nolifes 10 hours as long as the server offers you funplay and kinda separates different "streams" of players so u dont get 1shot everywhere and emoQQ

nolifers matter only to other tryhard guys because they are direct competition and competition is good.
also nolifers burnout pretty fast, start fighting about who gets first draco bow or epic jewel or whatever shit, they cause drama cuz in the perception of every nolifer he is the best playa eva and he carries dis shit, then their clan breaks up when ppl start stealing shit from the CP cache and they emoqq saying "we beat this server no competition", part of them stays fully geared but kinda trashy cuz noone likes them and they free up space for the next batch of adventurers, most of the CP's items are sold on the black market to RMTers and we rinse and repeat the story

if its not for the nolifers who will cause the drama every server needs? who will be in the role of thanos so the need of avengers arises?

@haha - i appreciate it man, please share in which areas are your knowledge and powers


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:27 am 
Vagabond

Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:30 am
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hmmm, no powers, just free time and i like l2 , haha


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:10 am 
Duke

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:03 pm
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Although I don't play much if at all anymore, this topic is pretty interesting to me, so I'll do some rambling haha


L2 I wouldn't say is dead except for the traditional sense. Been playing casually l2reborn with a couple of friends who are new to the game (vitality system and kamaloka raids make for a fun combo casually) and if anything, it worries me that the server is too populated, ha.

The demand is definitely there, but you gotta figure out exactly what most people are looking for.

With the lack of a development team, starting a completely open server is a difficult endeavor and with how sophisticated botting/ddos tools and alike have gotten, probably not desirable either unless you've had experience running servers for years.

Choosing the right chronicle is a bit of an enigma, though a pretty obvious problem when viewed with the perspective of what the life cycle tends to be for an mmorpg: they never really did fresh starts, meaning that as each content update came in, there was a baseline, inflated economy that was expected which doesn't exist with a fresh start of a late chronicle like even interlude. In effect, we can collectively remember those wonderous times of lurking around in hot springs in the ubiquitous vintage karmian robe set and classic homonculus attire at the ripe level of 78.
I still recall the days when we were flabbergasted as to how retail 1x players afforded SS/BSS all the while if anything, we struggled more on significantly higher rates than they have.

But going progressive starting C1 has the downsides of the lack of much - and I mean much - needed QOL (no auto shots, needing to buy maps etc) and most of us knowing exactly how each chronicle fairs and what to expect from it, it'd be very apparent that parties comprised primarily of destroyers would be the way to go until the inevitable new meta or for a fresh start where even mid-game equipment is hard to come by, the flat stat summons are an easy path; though to be fair, I understand that would only be an issue to instrumental players, not casual. Still, there's a game to be played and good balance and content if not key, then is still pretty significant to an enjoyable experience.

It is worth nothing that the olden day experience can't possibly be recreated with how much we now know about the game (and if you really want to be philosophical about it, then just even due to the passing and changing of time). It's why classic WoW servers didn't work either: the playerbase changed dramatically, not in who played the game, but how they played it. On the other hand, you can definitely make an experience that is better: I've had significantly more fun on a recent diablo 2 mod server than I ever did with the original game even.

Subscription base makes a lot of sense, but to get people to subscribe to something, they generally want to know that what they are subscibing to already has value. After I played a few hours on l2 reborn, I had no qualms paying the 5 bucks for the VIP pass, but had it been a new server with 1/50th of the playerbase, I probably wouldn't even have stuck around to spend even that much. So the best approach is to eat the cost and show a community you have what it takes so they are more willing to sign up on it knowing it's more than just a promise.

Starting small is an option: a tightly knit, small community might be enjoyable, curated through something like discord, perhaps through a mid-low rate server so investment/progression isn't abysmally slow. Maybe more invested into a cooperative approach with organized pvp events and then if by any chance this seems to work out, then with more experience a more open server to more players.
50 people may be a small amount, but 50 people organized into doing some epics, pvp events, etc could be a nice compromise that would be doable as a small project for a start.

That may be achievable through pmfun even, but hopefully I don't sound disrespectul when I say I feel the pmfun boards are even dead-er than L2 :mrgreen:


Either way, I myself still do have l2 on a backburner and I'm goofing around an hour or two on it just about every other day maybe. But I wouldn't necessarily say 'never' if I saw a solid community to play with casually.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:01 am 
Marquis
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just wanted to say hello to Lhyno. Hope you are well. Had a lot of fun playing with you. Hope life was kind to you.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:46 pm 
Vassal

Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 am
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Running healthy no-p2w server is hard time consuming work with little or no reward.

The main issue as I see it is project leader's naive idea that casuals and seasonal players can coexist on one server. They wanted it all. They wanted the casual that spends 50EUR to pimp up his one and only char with cosmetics and they wanted top CPs to drop 300EUR on launch for class quests.

A server (always advertised as long-term project) died after 2-3 months when seasonal players ran out of content and left en masse. Some managed to squeak by this stage and became semi-casual like L2Dawn where casuals run around in +6 hand-me-down IC sets.

Some servers focused solely on casuals and are still around. They're called no-box servers and Elmorelab or Reborn are probably the most popular today.

No-box is cancer for seasonal players as it forces players into extremely ineffective play. Seasonal players got screwed. The constant re-launch model spiralled into sea of cash-grab projects.

For casual friendly servers I can only guess. I'd suggest copying Elmorelab. Get C1 files, say it's progression, slap it with x1 rates, no-box policy and screenshots of elf dagger farming alongside their wolf.

For seasonal server my suggestion is the same as I posted every time server I played got into trouble. Don't advertise no-wipe, Interlude doesn't work without wipes. Run servers seasonally: Spring season (Jan-May), Fall season (Sept-Nov). Move all chars after each season to a graveyard server and organize PVP tournament there between seasons. For us tryhards get some forum badges and stats for each season to fap over.


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:51 am 
Duke

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Kata wrote:
just wanted to say hello to Lhyno. Hope you are well. Had a lot of fun playing with you. Hope life was kind to you.


Yeah! life's been pretty nice for me since :D
Glad to know you're still about, thanks for the great times!


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 Post subject: Re: L2 PMFUN Network - Power to The People
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:04 pm 
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meanwhile having a blast on classic wow on blizz servers RP-ing with a trio blood elf party :)
FOR THE HOOOORDEEE
https://ibb.co/hBT24qH


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